Photo: Chase Strangio
This week, the ACLU’s Chase Strangio joined W. Kamau Bell on the “At Liberty Podcast” to discuss the current state of LGBTQIA+ rights across the country.
They explore how President Donald Trump’s executive orders have already affected folks’ access to gender-affirming care, passports, and beyond. They also discuss how the ACLU is contesting these measures and why protecting LGBTQIA+ rights is critical to ensuring everyone’s rights.
(Chase Strangio is co-director of the ACLU’s LGBTQ & HIV Project as well as a nationally-recognized expert on transgender rights. You can read more about his work here.)
Here is a transcript of their conversation:
[00:00:00] W. Kamau Bell: Hey everyone. It’s me, W. Kamau Bell. If you haven’t heard the news—well, this news—I’m the 2025 official host of the ACLU’s podcast At Liberty. Every episode, I’ll be asking the big questions on the big issues affecting our country. And we know there’s lots of big issues, and [00:00:20] especially those issues happening to some of our hardest hit and most vulnerable communities.
[00:00:24] W. Kamau Bell: And I’m calling on ACLU experts, or as I’m calling them, the WKB ACLU Special Correspondence Task Force. That is the WKB ACLU SCTF. They are here to answer those questions. [00:00:40] For our first episode of the year, I sat down with the ACLU’s legal director, Cecilia Wang, to discuss the Trump administration’s first days in office and the first wave of executive orders that followed.
[00:00:51] W. Kamau Bell: Go ahead and check out that episode after you listen to this one. And make sure that you’re subscribed to At Liberty so you don’t miss a single conversation. They’re all good. They’re all [00:01:00] necessary. We’re here together. Today, we’re focusing on one of our most critical frontiers for civil liberties: LGBTQIA+ rights.
[00:01:08] W. Kamau Bell: See, we keep all the letters in there—and specifically transgender rights. On his first day in office, president Trump signed an executive order requiring federal agencies to discriminate [00:01:20] against transgender people by denying who they are. The Trump administration is also attempting to shut down access to necessary medical care for transgender people under the age of 19 nationwide.
[00:01:32] W. Kamau Bell: One of the first actions that the house took in 2025 was to order the state department to stop granting requests for [00:01:40] new or updated passports with gender markers that don’t conform with the new definitions of “sex,” in quotes, as laid out by president Trump’s executive order. And we’re recording this on Friday, February 7th, not even three weeks into Trump’s term.
[00:01:55] W. Kamau Bell: We know that LGBTQ+ people aren’t going anywhere, [00:02:00] but can the federal government really scrub their rights as quickly as they can scrub DEI mentions on a website? It’s an uncertain, confusing time, but I know just the trusted ACLU expert to help us out. All right, get settled. Take a deep breath. Find your center.
[00:02:16] W. Kamau Bell: Let’s go. Today’s guest is Chase [00:02:20] Strangio, Co-Director of the ACLU’s LGBT and HIV project, as well as a nationally recognized expert on transgender rights. His work includes impact litigation, as well as legislative and administrative advocacy on behalf of LGBTQ people and people living with HIV across the United [00:02:40] States.
[00:02:40] W. Kamau Bell: And in December 2024, he became the nation’s first openly trans person to argue in front of the Supreme Court in U.S. vs. Skrmetti. He doesn’t know it yet, but I’m also recruiting him to my WKB Task Force, so hopefully you’ll be hearing a lot more from him this year. Please welcome to the show, Chase Strangio! [00:03:00]
[00:03:01] W. Kamau Bell: Hey, Chase.
[00:03:03] Chase Strangio: Hey, how’s it going?
[00:03:05] W. Kamau Bell: That’s what—I wanted to start, I wanted to act like we’re just two old friends who haven’t talked in a while, which: you were on my old podcast, Politically Reactive.
[00:03:12] Chase Strangio: I remember.
[00:03:13] W. Kamau Bell: And yeah, I’m glad you do. I know you have a lot going on, but I just want to ask the most complicated question to ask, how [00:03:20] are you doing?
[00:03:21] Chase Strangio: You know, that is complicated, but I’m holding up okay. I am happy to be alive, to be in community with people, and takin’ it one day at a time and reminding myself to breathe. How are you doing?
[00:03:38] W. Kamau Bell: Uh… [00:03:40] the same! Like, I’m just, like, you know—like, I just was talking to my six-year-old daughter, my wife and her dropped me off here for this podcast recording, and my daughter was like, “Why do you work every day now?”
[00:03:51] W. Kamau Bell: “You didn’t used to work every day.” Which, I think a little bit, I did always work every day, but her perception is changing. But I was, like, “‘Cause Trump’s in office now, I have more work to [00:04:00] do.” Like, you know, so I think it’s just recognizing that, like, I have to show up more. And I’m lucky that I can do things like this.
[00:04:07] W. Kamau Bell: Like, talk to you and work with the ACLU, but also, you know, it does mean that there’s less time for the fun things in life, like hanging out with your daughter, who was drawing doodles in her notebook.
[00:04:18] Chase Strangio: That’s real. That’s very real. [00:04:20] So we—and we got to remember to keep doing those fun things too, because that’s how we’re going to have the endurance to fight everything we’ve got to fight.
[00:04:28] W. Kamau Bell: Yeah, I was saying before we started, because you were answering an email, and I was sort of joking about the fact that you needed to pay attention to me. And I was joking, because I just want to be clear, as I said before we started, interviewing you is a little bit, like, I [00:04:40] feel like interviewing Batman.
[00:04:41] W. Kamau Bell: You might just have to go, like, fight the Joker. And if an email comes in that says it’s time for Chase to go fight the Joker, you just go, okay? I just want to be clear.
[00:04:49] Chase Strangio: Well, I’ll just, I’ll just—I’m out of here, you know? Yeah, yeah. It’s— you know, the signal might come, and I will have to go, to depart from here into Gotham.
[00:04:59] W. Kamau Bell: You’re doing all this [00:05:00] incredible work. I’m sure there’s a million things going on. Is there something that’s top of mind right now for you? That is, like, “This is the thing that I’m thinking about when I’m not thinking about all the other things.”
[00:05:11] Chase Strangio: Oh, that’s a—that’s a great question. I think the reality is when I’m not thinking about each individual thing, that it’s actually the big picture that’s [00:05:20] haunting me, that the reality of an administration that is so aggressively using the power of the government to target groups that have historically been oppressed and, and doing so for the sake of building power and in such a sort of mean spirited but transparently [00:05:40] maniacal way. And, and that just keeps me up at night.
[00:05:43] Chase Strangio: And then when I think about my community, I think about the trans community. It’s the magnitude of assaults and then also rhetorically what that is sending the message of both to trans people and to, to those watching. So that, that, that’s really what I’m, I’m sort of sitting with. What does it mean to be a sort of people under assault [00:06:00] and how do we fight back?
[00:06:01] W. Kamau Bell: Yeah, I think that, you know—and that’s the way it seems to be with all the issues. They seem to be operating at these sort of, like, big institutional levels. But then also levels that. seem petty but aren’t petty, like, even things like and I would love to hear your thoughts on this like changing the LGBTQ to LGB and that’s it. And, like, you know, [00:06:20] like, that seems a lot, on some levels seems super petty. But it’s also super clear what they’re trying to do there, but just changing it at all things at all levels.
[00:06:27] Chase Strangio: Yeah, I mean, yeah, it’s, like, you see an administration that is, like, “We’re going to try to literally delete your existence from the government websites while we’re implementing government [00:06:40] policies that are trying to make survival for so many people impossible.”
[00:06:43] Chase Strangio: So yeah, it’s, it’s, like, the petty things also take on such a magnitude when you combine it with the material consequences of the policies that this government is putting forth.
[00:06:52] W. Kamau Bell: So can you just for, for our sake, remind our listeners what gender-affirming care means and what it [00:07:00] is—and why, and I’m going to add this part to it—and why it’s not, it’s not the scary thing that the right would lead you to believe it is.
[00:07:09] Chase Strangio: Yeah, so gender-affirming medical care is the provision of medical care for transgender people supported by doctors and patients—and in the case of minors, [00:07:20] their parents—that allows transgender people to live consistent with their gender identity. And all gender-affirming care is medication or other medical care that non transgender people also receive.
[00:07:33] Chase Strangio: So what it might look like is, hormones—estrogen or testosterone—so that a trans person can [00:07:40] live and express themselves consistent with their male or female identity. And the reality is, is that the, first of all, number one consumers of gender-affirming medical care are non transgender people, that most gender-affirming medical care are things that you know, that cis people get, too. You know, remove facial hair, uh, for women.
[00:08:00] Chase Strangio: And, and that this, this is very common and, and we recognize it as, as permissible. And yet, what we’ve seen in the last four years in particular is this fundamental assault on the entire medical establishment’s supported treatment paradigm for transgender people, acting as though there is a conspiracy [00:08:20] to inject people with this, you know, wildly harmful series of medications, but the reality is that these are long-standing medications that have been used for transgender people and non transgender people alike.
[00:08:32] Chase Strangio: And what we have now is this escalation of assaults from the state governments criminalizing and banning this care to now the federal government [00:08:40] doing the same thing. And this should concern people, I think, for, for sort of two fundamental reasons. And the first is that if the government can come in and declare that a group of people can’t access the medical care they need because they are politically unpopular, then it’s just simply not going to stop with, with transgender people.
[00:08:59] Chase Strangio: [00:09:00] And our gender-affirming medical care is doctor-supported, evidence-based medical care, just like many other forms of medical care. It is not somehow uniquely vulnerable to being justifiably banned by the government. And then the second thing, particularly with the Trump administration, that I really want people to be keyed into is, this is yet another power grab from the Trump administration, where [00:09:20] the president is trying to put himself above all other branches of government, and above the constitution, so that he can proclaim national policy to harm the people he doesn’t like.
[00:09:31] Chase Strangio: And so if trans people’s medical care, our gender-affirming medical care, can be under assault, there’s nothing stopping your care from being [00:09:40] next.
[00:09:41] W. Kamau Bell: And, and when you say your care, I hear that specifically as me and my identity as a Black man, that I know that, like, if that all this stuff ends up coming for Black folks, like, so I think it’s a reason why—and I, when I say Black folks, certainly there are Black trans people, but I mean, like, cisgender, heterosexual Black folks are always going to be the next in line [00:10:00] for whatever awful thing this government is doing, especially Black women in this country who already suffer horrible health outcomes just by nature. The fact is, this country is always targeting Black women. So I think that that can’t be said enough that, like, all this stuff, there’s not, like, “Oh, now that we’ve taken care of this community, we’re gonna stop being awful.”
[00:10:15] W. Kamau Bell: That’s not, that’s not how it goes.
[00:10:18] Chase Strangio: Right, and of course, as you know, that, [00:10:20] that there’s so many people who exist at the intersection of so many systematic assaults from the state and federal governments. If you’re a trans immigrant, if you’re a Black trans person, then that means these systems of racism, these systems of colonial control, and then transphobia are making life quite [00:10:40] literally impossible right now, and we have to be in a position to say we can’t let people be subjected to this kind of systematic government attack.
[00:10:48] W. Kamau Bell: Can we talk about the executive orders that are, that are sort of related to or targeting the LGBTQIA+ rights?
[00:10:55] Chase Strangio: Oh my god, I know. Is it three, three weeks or three years or… ? It’s, like, I’m, like, three weeks? That can’t be right.
[00:11:04] W. Kamau Bell: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know, I know, I know, I know.
[00:11:06] Chase Strangio: It’s, I feel like that’s, that’s not right. But I mean, with these executive orders, it feels like one catastrophic executive order targeting the trans community every single day. I think there’s been about 10.
[00:11:19] Chase Strangio: And [00:11:20] So, you know, if that—that’s about, you know, one every other day. And these range from this sweeping executive order that came down on Inauguration Day on January 20th, in essence, announcing that it is the policy of the federal government to not recognize that transgender people exist, and then directing agencies across government [00:11:40] to start to implement policies excising trans people—literally—from the government websites, from the restrooms, but then also from legal protections across the government.
[00:11:48] Chase Strangio: So that was day one. And then from there, there have been a series of other orders targeting, you know, excluding trans people from the military. And as we know, the—President Trump did [00:12:00] enact a military ban on openly trans service members in his first administration. But what is very noticeable here is that there is an escalation in terms of the breadth of these orders and the rhetoric here with the military service ban President Trump is announcing that to be an openly trans person is to live a lie that is not [00:12:20] consistent with honor And and so saying that we we are incompatible With things like military service and when the military is the largest employer in the united states. That is a huge material impact on a group that’s already underemployed and disproportionately represented In the military, and then there was an executive order seeking to nationally ban [00:12:40] gender-affirming medical care for transgender people under the age of 19.
[00:12:44] Chase Strangio: So that’s not just minors, but also 18 year olds who are legal adults and executive order that was—it’s called “Banning Radical Indoctrination In Schools,” targeting the discussion of the history of racism in the United States and the existence of transgender people [00:13:00] together and that has sweeping effects, threatening federal funding.
[00:13:03] Chase Strangio: This is a big thing that the administration is doing. It’s using this, the power of the federal government to threaten states and other local entities that do things they don’t like. And so with the medical care executive order, with the schools executive order, in essence, the administration is saying, if you support trans people, [00:13:20] if you talk about racism, if you know, have, LGBT on your website.
[00:13:26] Chase Strangio: If you are researching science, if you’re researching the medical impacts of racial disparities in maternal health outcomes, then no federal funding for you. It’s like these, it’s [00:13:40] just everywhere. It’s just, it’s, it’s everywhere. And the reality is that these, these attacks are, are, are resulting in trans people, their families, the people who love them.
[00:13:51] Chase Strangio: Living in a constant state of fear looking for exit plans from the United States, and, and that really is just, [00:14:00] it’s just really hard to watch. But also, I, I am more motivated and driven to fight back than ever.
[00:14:06] W. Kamau Bell: I mean, one of the things I’ve seen is the thing about passports and the gender markers on passports and there was a trans woman who had applied for her new passport and she had fully transitioned and had her [00:14:20] F on the passport and then she got her passport and they said, “We corrected it.”
[00:14:23] W. Kamau Bell: “And turned your, turned your F back to an M.” She did a social media video about it, and the ACU, I think, has taken on the case for just that idea of, like, and, as she says, and I think this is such a complicated issue, but please talk about this, she presents as a woman. So if you’re not gonna make her go to the [00:14:40] men’s room, it doesn’t make any sense.
[00:14:42] Chase Strangio: First of all, this entire administration’s policy is premised on the idea that every aspect of life has to be sorted based on our, you know, cell size at the time of conception. So the idea that if you have a large cell, you produce a large cell at conception, [00:15:00] therefore you’re a female and you go to the And if you have a small cell, you’re male, we don’t order the world that way.
[00:15:07] Chase Strangio: It’s not like people are walking around being like, Oh yeah, let me go to the small cell bathroom and then, you know, doing genetic testing at the door. Because of course, nothing is binary in that way, including, you know, [00:15:20] the breakdown of any aspect of, of sex. And the reality is, is we live in. Move through the world with a self determined sense of our sex with that.
[00:15:30] Chase Strangio: That’s what happens. There’s there’s not guards at the bathroom door and and they’re trying to enforce this idea that they alone can control what it means to be a man and what it means [00:15:40] to be a woman on federal identification in restroom uses in public buildings in In sports and health care and how each individual and each individual family understands their bodies and and that is a dangerous thing to see to the government.
[00:15:55] Chase Strangio: And the more we see that, the more we give them the type of surveillance and [00:16:00] control over our bodies that allows them to build the type of government that they want, which is where they are singularly powerful and our rights as individuals are diminished.
[00:16:09] W. Kamau Bell: I would imagine you’re hearing stories from trans folks around the country about how this is impacting their life now.
[00:16:15] W. Kamau Bell: Is there any stories you could share with us that you’re hearing about from people around the country?
[00:16:19] Chase Strangio: I mean, [00:16:20] it’s I mean, I can’t even tell you it’s so it’s so many stories and I’m, you know, first as each of these executive actions with the health care, you know, I’m hearing from what’s so heartbreaking is I got so many message from from 18 year olds who are like, I was waiting and waiting until I was a legal adult so I could go out and have control over my body over my life.
[00:16:39] Chase Strangio: [00:16:40] And they canceled my doctor’s appointment on the way to the doctor because of this executive order, or parents who have, you know, their kid has been so distressed about the onset of puberty, and they’ve only ever been known in the world as a girl, but were assigned male at birth, and they were on the way to the doctor to get the care that the parents and the [00:17:00] doctors and the young person all agree was essential.
[00:17:02] Chase Strangio: And then care is shut down. And families who already relocated from a state where their care was banned moved to another state only now to have the care band. Again, I mean, these stories are are just so devastating. And then with with identification, I mean, for me, [00:17:20] I’ve had an M on my driver’s license, my passport for a very long time.
[00:17:23] Chase Strangio: And the idea of me having to leave the country with a document that classifies me as female. Um, and when you’re traveling abroad, you use your passport for everything. You check into a hotel, you, you turn over your passport. So it would, in essence, announce in every interaction, [00:17:40] you know, both with private citizens and with government officials that, that you’re trans.
[00:17:44] Chase Strangio: Then they, you know, and it brings suspicion. It creates instability. And, and that’s what people are. And that’s what I’m fearful about is, is to be forcibly, um, misidentified by the government and then to have to carry that around, not just domestically, but around the world. And, and, and I [00:18:00] think people are very, very scared, which is why, you know, we’re taking legal action in the context of passports, in the context of healthcare, in the context of schools, because we need people to feel like they can exist in the world safely.
[00:18:12] Chase Strangio: And, and, and if, if litigation is one way to show people that we’re fighting back, then that is what we’re going to continue to do. [00:18:20]
[00:18:20] W. Kamau Bell: Yeah, and we’ve talked about this a little bit, but I’d love for you to sort of even go a little further about how the Trump administration, some middle-aged comedians have made it seem like trans is separate from all other categories, so you can’t be, you can’t be black and trans, or trans is, you can’t, trans is just trans, it’s not poor and trans, [00:18:40] It’s not rich in trans, like, you know, and that, that there’s just this category of people called trans who are separate from the rest of us.
[00:18:44] W. Kamau Bell: Can you talk about how those intersections actually do impact the trans people’s identity?
[00:18:50] Chase Strangio: Yeah. I mean, I do think there’s this way to try to exceptionalize trans existence and it happens in a number of different ways. It’s sort of this idea that transness is so [00:19:00] foreign that you can’t ground it in anything else that we might consider human.
[00:19:03] Chase Strangio: Um, but then of course that’s so disconnected from, from reality where obviously there’s, you know, there’s. Unhoused trans people. There’s disabled trans people, there’s black trans people, there’s trans immigrants, and all, you know, there’s trans people in all communities and always there, always have [00:19:20] been across, you know, all of history.
[00:19:22] Chase Strangio: And they, there is this effort to sort of cast transness as this new and, and, and weird and unsettling thing. But, but transness has, has always existed and, and simply mocking. trans people doesn’t make us any less real and make us any less part of, [00:19:40] of all all these communities. And at the end of the day, what all of this reflects from the government policies to comedians fixating on trans people with basic jokes that aren’t even funny is that the, there’s an anxiety about sort of the malleability of, of the gender binary, the [00:20:00] idea that there are.
[00:20:02] Chase Strangio: You know, so many ways that we can be, you know, more than just, sort of how we think of men and how we think of women and, and that causes people a lot of anxiety because it does remind us that the world is more expansive than we’re, we’re told and with that freedom comes a lot of questions for people about, well, what, what am I [00:20:20] supposed to do with all of that possibility?
[00:20:22] Chase Strangio: And so I think the reaction is to try to make people smaller. Um, and that happens by suggesting that trans people are so anomalous. But another thing I think is important is the very same ways that trans people are cast as dangerous or weird or [00:20:40] different than other historically oppressed groups, that every iteration of discrimination looks precisely the same way.
[00:20:46] Chase Strangio: Gay people, also, we don’t want you in our, that, you know, the same stories were told. We don’t want gay people in the locker room because they will sexualize us. We don’t want gay people in the military. We don’t want gay people to be teachers. That was Anita Bryant’s campaign. And then, you [00:21:00] know, we moved on from that, sort of, and put the hatred on, on, on trans people.
[00:21:04] Chase Strangio: But, and then, you know, historical oppression and anti blackness takes the same form. It’s the same story over and over again, suggesting each time that it’s new. And it’s not. It’s never new. It’s always the same.
[00:21:15] W. Kamau Bell: Yes. So obviously I could keep talking about that, but there’s something we have to get [00:21:20] to. So you, I mean, let’s, let’s just take away all the, all the stakes at play, all the things that were going through your mind or all the, the, the gravitas.
[00:21:31] W. Kamau Bell: But in December of 2024, you became the nation’s first openly trans person to argue in front of the Supreme Court in U. S. versus Skirmetti. I, I [00:21:40] just want a second, just the fact that you’re Are you in front of the Supreme Court? I know it’s hard to separate what you were arguing about, but I would imagine that that was a big day, that there was, that there was a lot going on for you that day.
[00:21:51] Chase Strangio: Yeah. Yes. Yeah, definitely.
[00:21:53] W. Kamau Bell: I mean, I guess I’m trying to say like, there’s the, like, I’m here to present the case, but also like I’m in front of the Supreme Court, you [00:22:00] know?
[00:22:00] Chase Strangio: Yeah. It was a big day and it was, um, It just, it takes a lot. It takes a lot of preparation. It takes a lot of emotional energy. Obviously, that emotional energy is escalated when it’s a huge civil rights case and it’s a civil rights case that implicates your own life.
[00:22:16] Chase Strangio: Um, when there’s this narrative of, of his, you know, [00:22:20] it’s the first of something which always, you know, in the U. S. people love that. So it creates all of this extra. feedback. Um, but in general, it is, it’s, it’s, it is somewhat surreal as a lawyer to say, okay, I’m, I’m walking up to the lectern in the Supreme court and, and going to start my legal argument.
[00:22:38] Chase Strangio: It is a surreal [00:22:40] experience that I certainly will never forget.
[00:22:42] W. Kamau Bell: Was there any, I mean, again, I know that we were talking about the case. Was there any sort of Pride or joy in that experience as someone who’s a lawyer that like, that’s a thing that that’s one of those like goals that I’m sure many lawyers imagine and have.
[00:22:56] W. Kamau Bell: Was there, did you feel the pride of that moment? [00:23:00]
[00:23:00] Chase Strangio: So in the moment, I think I was just very focused. And so I didn’t, I wasn’t like, Oh, I’m very proud in this moment. It was also a very epic time because it was right between the election and inauguration. And I was very you know, wicked had come out the week before and I was like, very much like, Cynthia Erivo, Elphaba, like, it’s [00:23:20] just sort of like, this is going to drive me and Cynthia’s voice is, you know, it was a little bit of defying gravity on repeat and trying to get myself into, um, to, to the zone.
[00:23:32] Chase Strangio: And, and that was helpful, the, the sort of, you know, musical fight against authoritarianism, um, in the [00:23:40] lead up to inauguration and our Supreme Court case. So, so that I think was, was where I found the energy in a, in a very dramatic sense. Um, and then afterwards, I think when I, when I was able to actually take a deep breath, I, I was like, wow, that, that actually happened.
[00:23:55] Chase Strangio: And, and that I think was, you know, there was very little time to feel pride given that we went right into [00:24:00] planning for the Trump, Trump presidency and then inauguration. But I did try to sort of sit with it, um, and, and sort of feel that energy. And I, I did.
[00:24:09] W. Kamau Bell: I love the idea of you like, on, with Defying Gravity on, repeating Cynthia Erivo as you sort of like, we all have our get hype music, and that’s a, I love that song [00:24:20] being the song that’s getting you hyped to argue for trans folks in front of the Supreme Court.
[00:24:24] W. Kamau Bell: That’s beautiful.
[00:24:26] Chase Strangio: You know, it felt like it really fit, and, um, so. Oh yeah, for sure. That, that was really grateful for, for Cynthia and Ariana and, and that coming edge on to it, to come out right before, it felt really good.
[00:24:39] W. Kamau Bell: I would, I would [00:24:40] imagine they’d feel honored to know that you were, that you were, that that was the song that was going through your ears before you argue for trans rights, before you were defying patriarchy.
[00:24:48] Chase Strangio: Yeah, exactly. We’ll do a sort of,
[00:24:53] W. Kamau Bell: A remake, yeah.
[00:24:53] Chase Strangio: You know, a remake of it, yeah.
[00:24:56] W. Kamau Bell: Cynthia Erivo, if you’re, I know you pay attention to things, let’s do defying [00:25:00] patriarchy with Chase here. Yeah. So, there’s a phrase, “Thank you, Chief Justice, and may it please the court.” That is a sort of like, that’s like the, that’s like the, let’s get it phrase, right?
[00:25:12] W. Kamau Bell: Let’s kick this off. Let’s, let’s, let’s, let’s get it on, as they say in, in, in boxing. What [00:25:20] goes to your mind right before you say that phrase?
[00:25:23] Chase Strangio: So one thing is you practice so many times that, and I was, you know, I was talking to myself in the street and, you know, wherever I was always practicing my argument, which starts with, you know, Mr.
[00:25:32] Chase Strangio: Chief Justice and may it please the court. And, and, and so one thing is I couldn’t stop. I couldn’t stop when it was over. I was [00:25:40] saying that like for a month, it was just in my head. And so I, I, that is always one of those things when you finish prepping for a big argument, you sort of can’t unwind your brain.
[00:25:50] W. Kamau Bell: Um,
[00:25:51] Chase Strangio: But in that moment, um, the other thing is, so in my case, the, the, the way it starts is the, the chief will call the case and then to [00:26:00] counsel say, Mr. Strangio or, you know, Ms. Prelogger. Um, and the, you know, the world was all. Is the chief going to call you Mr. Stradio and the Wall Street Journal had done an interview with me and they kept asking me this question.
[00:26:14] Chase Strangio: And I, I was like, well, first of all, I don’t know. I can’t predict. I mean, I think he will. But [00:26:20] so then it took on all of this import and actually During the argument, in addition to, he did call me Mr. Strangio, as did Justice Barrett and Justice Kavanaugh, I believe, in the course of the argument. And then somehow, there was all this media, you know, attacking them for, for properly calling me Mr.,
[00:26:35] Chase Strangio: which just felt, just, you know, it’s, again, going back to this pettiness of, [00:26:40] somehow people are aggrieved. By my being affirmed in any in any way, so I think it took on all of this significance, which in the moment, to be honest, I didn’t I wasn’t focused on it. He could have called me anything and I wouldn’t have registered it because I was focused on getting through that part without screwing it up.
[00:26:58] Chase Strangio: And there’s this, um, this meme [00:27:00] video where there’s this little kid And he’s carrying a mug towards his mom and he’s doing such a good job, but he spills a little and then he spills a little more and he just like freaks out and just throws the whole thing. And I just kept being, like, worried that I would just make a little mistake and then just, like, throw the whole cup in the middle of the argument and I was like, “Chase, [00:27:20] just keep your cool.”
[00:27:21] Chase Strangio: If there’s a little mistake, you don’t have to give up. You’re gonna do this. So I was very much. Trying to just keep myself grounded and, um, and, and answer the questions and be present and be responsive to the justices because what they always say is, you know, a court argument is a conversation and you want to be conversational.
[00:27:38] Chase Strangio: Um, it’s obviously a [00:27:40] very, not like a conversation in other ways, but I was very much focused on that.
[00:27:44] W. Kamau Bell: What’s at stake in this case?
[00:27:46] Chase Strangio: Yeah, so this is a case in which Tennessee had banned the gender affirming medical care for trans adolescents in Tennessee and the ACLU and our co counsel at Lambda Legal had sued arguing that it violated the equal protection rights [00:28:00] of transgender adolescents and the due process rights of their parents and it went up to the Supreme Court and the real question before the court is, is this a form of an equal protection violation when the government differentiates between people who are trans and people who are not trans and withholds medication just because [00:28:20] someone is seeking to live inconsistent with their sex, which is what the operative prohibition in the Tennessee case said.
[00:28:26] Chase Strangio: And, you know, the government said, no, this isn’t discrimination at all. Nobody can transition, basically, um, and, and so the, the, you know, the question is, of course, most immediately relevant for whether this Tennessee law will [00:28:40] stand, but if you look at the world we’re in now, this is a constitutional question that has relevance, you know, across all areas of life for trans people, but also it’s a real question of Do our, you know, do the reconstruction amendments still stand?
[00:28:53] Chase Strangio: You know, we see the, you know, president Trump came in day one. No more birthright, citizenship. That is an assault on the [00:29:00] 14th Amendment and ruling against us would be an assault on the 14th Amendment. And during the argument, justice Jackson pose several questions to Tennessee and to us to sort of suggest that I’m con, I’m concerned here because the go, the government’s arguments seem to be undermining.
[00:29:16] Chase Strangio: every single thing that we have developed over 150 years [00:29:20] of doctrine about equal protection. And that is really what’s at stake. Like, are we going to have these constitutional protections or not moving forward?
[00:29:28] W. Kamau Bell: Yeah. So, and you know, the, the case combined with the executive orders, do you feel like the executive orders that that will affect the ruling?
[00:29:38] W. Kamau Bell: Or do you, you know how it’s just, you know, [00:29:40] Trump is sort of doing his own thing and, you know, and it’s created the justice in the Supreme court in his own image as best he could.
[00:29:47] Chase Strangio: Yeah. I mean, he, I think Trump wants to believe he’s the unitary branch of government and, and I think that should be, should be alarming and, and the executive orders, you know, don’t, you know, directly affect the outcome of the case because the question there was could a [00:30:00] state, you know, ban this medical care, permissibly ban this medical care under the constitution.
[00:30:05] Chase Strangio: Um, but it has, the decision will have implications for how we challenge the, the executive orders, but regardless of what, you know, happens in Scrimeti. The Tennessee government in Scrimedi, in essence, said leave this to the democratic process. What Trump [00:30:20] has come in and done is completely subvert the democratic process and say, you know, Congress be damned, I get to make all the laws and policies.
[00:30:26] Chase Strangio: And I think that is something that regardless of what happens in, in, in Scrimedi is simply not. Um, cannot be squared with the constitution.
[00:30:34] W. Kamau Bell: Yeah, and you’ve talked about this a little bit, like, how do you, you know, sort of, there’s always, there’s always [00:30:40] talk about, it’s a, you’re the first, and America likes to make a big deal about the first, and it’s a big deal to be the first, let’s be clear about that, especially of a, something like this, and then there’s also the fact that you’re not, they’re the first transgender person fighting for parking tickets, you’re also fighting for this major thing that you said connects to you, is a referendum on trans rights and freedoms, how do you, how did you square [00:31:00] that circle in your head?
[00:31:01] Chase Strangio: Yeah, I mean, I think there’s sort of two things for me that feel really relevant, and the first is that, you know, I’m sort of standing on the shoulders of all sorts of trans people over time who have made it possible for me to be there, and sort of one of my heroes and icons is Pauli Murray, who is a black, you know, non binary, um, Or, you [00:31:20] know, sort of queer legal titan who is responsible for so much of, you know, Justice Marshall’s thinking in Brown v.
[00:31:27] Chase Strangio: Board of Education, Justice Ginsburg’s thinking in her advocacy. And I think about, well, Polly was not the first just by virtue of circumstance and, and, and the time in which Polly lived. And so it feels in some way, sort [00:31:40] of a disservice to the, to the long lineage to, to focus on one person being the first when, when it’s still connected to such rich history.
[00:31:48] Chase Strangio: And so I think about that. And then, you know, sometimes I was doing media and you know, some of the SCOTUS reporters are like, Ooh, this is a big one for your first one. Um, and I was like, Oh, thanks. You know, and obviously [00:32:00] the magnitude of it. A, as the, you know, to, to the second part of your question about, you know, this is sort of a big case and a big deal.
[00:32:07] Chase Strangio: That was, I think that the hardest part of that was in the preparation is just how grueling it was to be going through it over and over, um, and, and trying to get to the right answer, but also having to be so immersed in all of the [00:32:20] vitriol and, and, and all of the, the absurdity to have to fight over this.
[00:32:24] Chase Strangio: And, and so I think the months leading up to it were, were in fact really the more challenging. And then in the moment I was just buoyed by. The, the rally outside, the trans people who are with me and the fact that we were in this courtroom, you know, sort of, as so many other, you know, moments. I think that’s [00:32:40] what you guys represent as well, where you were never supposed to be there, but you’re there and you’re there to speak for your community instead of being spoken about.
[00:32:47] Chase Strangio: And I do think that’s very powerful.
[00:32:49] W. Kamau Bell: Yeah, I mean, it’s just the, to be that, to sort of know that you’re, and I love the Pauli Murray reference. I, I finally saw that documentary last year and just to realize, like you said, there before history, Pauli [00:33:00] Murray would have been that person, but it was just not.
[00:33:02] W. Kamau Bell: Exactly. It’s not that, yeah, it was not going to happen in that time. If this reality goes forward, how, or if this case doesn’t rule in our favor, or in the favor of the right side of history, how this affects trans kids.
[00:33:15] Chase Strangio: I, so first, at the end of the day, trans kids will continue to exist, we’ll continue to fight [00:33:20] for them, um, but we can’t live, I mean, we can’t live in a country where their healthcare is made criminal or is categorically banned, um, and I think what we’re seeing now between, you know, the 24 states that ban this care and now the federal government seeking to ban it nationally, are [00:33:40] trans kids just Really reckoning with whether there’s a place for them at all in this country, the level of fear, um, and I think, unfortunately, people really did think that if they lived in New York or California, that they would be safe, um, that their health care would be safe, that they would not be at risk for [00:34:00] being, you know, subjected to discriminatory policies in schools.
[00:34:02] Chase Strangio: But what we’re seeing now is that, you know, this is a federal government that is seeking to, you know, create these national rules and harm people in, you know, places where the state may well try to protect them, but the federal government is seeking to override that. and that means that trans young people and their [00:34:20] parents, their communities are terrified.
[00:34:22] Chase Strangio: I mean, it really just You know, breaks my heart to see these kids out, you know, really just out in the streets, just being, being forced to tell the country to pay attention to them, to think about their health care. And, and obviously the, the case of the Supreme Court is, is a big part of that fight, but the fight [00:34:40] is, is playing out every single day.
[00:34:41] W. Kamau Bell: For sure. Yeah, I think that’s the, as a, as a, as, you know, as a dad, I think about my girls and just, you know, as whatever they want to do, whoever they want to be, I feel like my job is just to make sure that the system doesn’t tell, doesn’t, and the system can be a teacher at school, it can be, or it can be [00:35:00] whatever, that they are, that they, that I’m there to sort of stand between them and somebody telling them the wrong thing.
[00:35:05] W. Kamau Bell: And I feel like that’s, and, and to, to imagine them to be in a position to, As like, you know, as a trans kid, like now you can’t even play sports, you know what I mean? Or you can’t, you know, you know, it’s just, you can’t go to the bathroom. You can’t, I [00:35:20] mean,
[00:35:20] Chase Strangio: these, these are fun. I mean, what are you, how are you going to, how are you going to go to school?
[00:35:23] Chase Strangio: How are you going to go to work? Um, and I do think as parents, like, I want people to just have a little bit of compassion. Like these, these are parents who like all people, all parents are the, what we would hope are just trying to be Protect their kids. Do right by their kids. They have, you [00:35:40] know, they have prayed and gone through their own reckoning and come out with the determination with their doctors and with their kids.
[00:35:47] Chase Strangio: This is the only right course. The people they know best in the world and now you have the government coming in and telling them no. I mean, you know, from the very same people mind you that I think feel very strongly about their own parental rights.
[00:35:59] W. Kamau Bell: Yep. [00:36:00] Yep. So, before I let you go, I just wanna sort of, what is sort of current State of the Union, or what are the rights as you see them in this current era of America? What are the LGBTQIA+ rights right now? What, you know, if you’re currently, if you’re, if you’re—if you’re trying to update your passport or your license or social [00:36:20] security card, if you’re looking for hormones or medical treatment, what are your rights right now in this country?
[00:36:26] Chase Strangio: Your rights, you know, in terms of what the federal government is doing are significantly constrained and, you know, and we are fighting, fighting back.
[00:36:33] Chase Strangio: So for federal identification, moving forward, there will not be updates to sex designations. We are, you know, [00:36:40] suing over that policy with respect to passports and hopefully we will prevail. Um, for people under 19, the Federal government is endeavoring to create national, bans on healthcare by coercing institutions to stop providing care by threatening to withhold their federal funding.
[00:36:56] Chase Strangio: So there is a real assault on this medical care. I think importantly [00:37:00] though, state identification is totally separate. Go get your state ID if you live in a state that allows you to do so. Go update your birth certificate in your state. That, that is not controlled by these executive orders and, and those are totally independent.
[00:37:12] Chase Strangio: And schools, you know, the administration is trying to punish. that affirm trans students, and we will of course fight back against that. But I think the [00:37:20] important thing to, to, for everyone, this is scary. Um, but, but, but trans people have resisted so much and I have, I have been privileged to be in the, in the presence of elders, to be mentored by elders who, you know, led so many movements, like Miss Major was part of the Attica prison uprising [00:37:40] and, you know, was out in the streets in Stonewall.
[00:37:42] Chase Strangio: And. You know, her motto is, you know, we’re still fucking here. I don’t know if I’m allowed to say that, but, you know, and, and, and, and we are, and, and we’ve, we, we’ve lived through many systematic attacks. And, and so look to the elders and, and look to the ancestors who, who have [00:38:00] paved a path. And, and yes, the rights are constrained, but our spirit and our sense of possibility, I think never will be.
[00:38:08] W. Kamau Bell: It’s great. I hope we can say we are fucking here.
[00:38:13] Chase Strangio: I don’t know how it works.
[00:38:14] W. Kamau Bell: Yeah, me neither. Me neither. It’s it’s free speech, right? It’s a free speech organization.
[00:38:18] Chase Strangio: Yeah. Yeah, we’re good. We’re [00:38:20] good. That’s free speech. Yeah,
[00:38:21] W. Kamau Bell: Yeah, yeah. Now I also want to talk about people who are allies and want to be active allies.
[00:38:28] W. Kamau Bell: People who, you know, I think about like federal and state employees, oh, real quick, there’s a note in the chat that I’m following that says you’re good to say fuck, obviously. So, we’ve [00:38:40] been, we’ve been given official ACLU permission.
[00:38:42] Chase Strangio: You said it a lot more, but I was trying to be respectable.
[00:38:49] W. Kamau Bell: All right. This is the, it’s not a time for respectability with their past. Yeah. So like, I think about somebody who, if you’re a federal employee and you want to be, you [00:39:00] know, helpful to someone who’s in this position, who’s coming to you to Apply for this or change their gender marker there or whatever.
[00:39:08] W. Kamau Bell: Or if you’re a high school PE coach or PE teacher and you work at a public school and this kid wants to play sports and that, and you, you know, how do you, what would you recommend to federal employees? What are their rights? If [00:39:20] they want to like be a good person, but maybe they also want to try to keep their job, you know, I don’t, maybe that’s not an, maybe that’s an impossible thing to answer.
[00:39:28] Chase Strangio: Well, I mean, I think the overall point is don’t comply in advance. A lot of these executive orders haven’t actually changed policy, and we’re seeing a lot of compliance in advance. We’re seeing, you know, the NCAA rolled over in two minutes. That, that’s ridiculous. [00:39:40] There was no basis to do that. And as the NCAA themselves said, there are 510 So, if we’re sitting here, you’re going to roll over for that minority group and when you do not have to yet.
[00:39:58] Chase Strangio: I mean, that is just disgraceful. [00:40:00] And I do think we just We wanna see people not complying in advance. And of course we know that there are times when you’re under threat that, that, that there, that, that you may not be able to take another course, but there’s other ways to be in solidarity with people who are under assault.
[00:40:14] Chase Strangio: Right now. You can be a part of changing the narrative about trans life. We are facing, you [00:40:20] know, coming off of an election cycle in which there was. 222 million spent in anti trans advertising. We have to fight back against the narrative as much as we have to fight back against the policies because what’s happening, as we were talking about, is that people think it’s okay to suggest that trans people are a threat to others.
[00:40:37] Chase Strangio: And once you legitimize that notion, you [00:40:40] authorize the government. To come in and attack a group of people and, and we have to all be participants in, in disrupting that, just as we do in, in, you know, in all sorts of other ways, if the government or if our rhetoric and cast and a group of people as an ideology or something, the way that the Trump administration is doing with trans people, then it [00:41:00] both legitimizes debate over people’s existence and then legitimizes policies seeking to attack and, and, and, and eliminate the group.
[00:41:07] Chase Strangio: And that is just simply an unacceptable position.
[00:41:10] W. Kamau Bell: I, that’s a great reminder. I’ve seen that sentiment shared before. Don’t, don’t obey in advance. Don’t comply in advance just because the president signs a thing that does not always mean that [00:41:20] you have to do what that thing says. So don’t obey in advance.
[00:41:22] W. Kamau Bell: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:41:24] Chase Strangio: This is, yeah, I think it’s really important.
[00:41:26] W. Kamau Bell: Yeah. Chase, I would like you to talk to the listener, whoever that is, whoever that person is. Obviously, if they’re listening to an ACLU podcast, they are, they are probably a friendly, unless it’s part of some court ordered, punishment that you have to listen to [00:41:40] come out on the ACLU podcast.
[00:41:41] W. Kamau Bell: But, if you could tell a listener to remember one thing from this conversation, what would it be? And if you could have listeners do one thing after this conversation, what would it be?
[00:41:53] Chase Strangio: Okay, if I could have listeners remember one thing, I think that that one thing is that our, our power [00:42:00] grows when we are in solidarity with each other and that there is a sense of collective exhaustion, fear, not knowing where to turn, but the single thing we can always do is build power with, with one another.
[00:42:10] Chase Strangio: And so that’s my takeaway. And then my action item is, is go take a risk for somebody else who has less power. [00:42:20] Um, then you do because right now there are, you know, just absolutely devastating attacks on immigrants in this country, on trans people in this country, on black people in this country.
[00:42:31] Chase Strangio: So what are you going to do, um, from your positionality to make someone else’s quality of life safer and better. And that’s what I’m asking [00:42:40] myself every single day.
[00:42:42] W. Kamau Bell: Nice. I love the Cynthia Erivo, Defying Gravity. Is there anything where you get hope or strength from right now that is an unlikely place or anything that’s giving you, that’s giving you a little bit of a pep in your step when you need some extra step pep?
[00:42:56] Chase Strangio: Yeah, well, I’ll always go to Cynthia and Defying Gravity. Um, [00:43:00] I mean, it’s always going to be art for me. It’s always, you know, I think this is, you know, I’m going to turn to art to, you know, to visual arts, to musical theater, to poetry to creativity as, as my, is my pathway out of the despair. And, and I always find it because, you know, art helps [00:43:20] transport us into new, you know, terrains of possibility.
[00:43:23] Chase Strangio: And that’s where I want to be. And, and, and so sometimes it’s defying gravity and sometimes it’s, you know, Polly Murray’s poetry and, and that, that’s where I, I find really the source of my sense that we’re going to fight our way through this.
[00:43:37] W. Kamau Bell: Would you like to do your best rendition of Defying Gravity right [00:43:40] now?
[00:43:40] Chase Strangio: I think that that would be a punishment for all listeners. But there is a video of me doing it the night before the Supreme Court argument. So someday I will release it. Oh, it hasn’t been shared. It hasn’t been
[00:43:54] W. Kamau Bell: shared. It’s never
[00:43:55] Chase Strangio: been shared. It’s never been shared. I mean, the people who are trying [00:44:00] to You know, get me grounded the night before the video is, is there, so it should be,
[00:44:04] W. Kamau Bell: it should be like if you, if you donate X amount to the ACLU. Or if you engage in X amount of, of political actions, , if you support the Gravity
[00:44:13] Chase Strangio: video will be released. Yeah, yeah. To you. If you, if
[00:44:16] W. Kamau Bell: you, if you do a certain amount of activism for the ACLU, [00:44:20] you will, we will release def Fine. Yeah. Okay. Where can people keep up with you and your amazing work?
[00:44:25] Chase Strangio: I mean, right here at the ACLU, um, or, you know, on.
[00:44:30] Chase Strangio: Out in the world.
[00:44:34] W. Kamau Bell: You’re not fucking going anywhere. You’re here.
[00:44:35] Chase Strangio: Yeah. Yeah. We’re still fucking here and I’m going to still be fighting.
[00:44:39] W. Kamau Bell: [00:44:40] Nice, nice. Thank you, Chase. This was a great conversation. I appreciate it as always. Um, It’s an honor to talk to you and an honor to get to know you in a whole new way.
[00:44:48] W. Kamau Bell: My, my 10 year old is also has a Cynthia Erivo thing. So you were very connected. So we’re,
[00:44:54] Chase Strangio: You know, we’re same, same. So yeah, I’m ready for the Oscar campaign. It was, I’m ready. [00:45:00] So
[00:45:02] W. Kamau Bell: I hope you have time to really engage in that. I hope everything goes well and these other things so you can engage in the Oscar campaign.
[00:45:09] W. Kamau Bell: Hey everybody. Thank you so much for listening this week and guess what? It’s Valentine’s day week when this episode comes out. So please share your Valentine’s week message of [00:45:20] LGBTQIA plus love and joy or messages of support in our Instagram comments. I’ll even respond. Cause I love love. And if you enjoyed listening to this episode of At Liberty, please subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and rate and review the show.
[00:45:32] W. Kamau Bell: It really means a lot to us. Give us five stars. We’re doing the big work here. We really appreciate the feedback and we want to hear from all of you. And remember, it’s [00:45:40] Valentine’s Day week, so put love in there. Until next time, I’m your host W. Kamau Bell. At Liberty is a production of the ACLU. This episode was executive produced by the ACLU’s Jessica Hermann Weitz and Gwen Schroeder, and Who Knows Best Productions, me, Kelly Rafferty, Phd.
[00:45:55] W. Kamau Bell: D., and Liz Hudson Bell, Ph. D., and was recorded at the great [00:46:00] Skyline Studios in Oakland, California. What’s up, Brian? This show is edited and produced by Erica Getto and Myrriah Gossett for Good Get. And remember, friends, friends help friends stay in the fight. Join us. [00:46:20] Peace.
